How Leaders Successfully Navigate Chaos with Dr. Steve Yacovelli

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[00:00:26] I am Betsy Sarillo, your host, and welcome to my guest today, Dr. Steve Elli, owner and principal of Top Dog Learning Group. Today we're talking about how. Leaders can successfully navigate through chaos. So pull up a chair, enjoy your favorite beverage, and let's get started. Welcome my friend. Hello, Betsy.

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[00:01:09] Yeah. Yeah. So I know as we, as we go on in our conversation, Steve will talk more about what you do and the impact you have for companies. But what I wanna start with, since we're talking about leadership. And chaos. What do you see occurs for leaders when chaos lands on your path?

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[00:01:38] Chaos pops its ugly head. And, you know, there's the, I think they, they attribute to, to Socrates that the only constant is change or. And many people have kind of said something like that over the years, and it's very true. And, and I think now more than ever, one of the things that, uh, smart leaders really embrace is, is one, knowing that you know what is now will not necessarily be what's going to be [00:02:00] tomorrow, but more importantly, how do you set yourself up as well as your team and those around you to be resilient when whatever change comes, comes a knocking.

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[00:02:26] I.

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[00:02:55] Keep up with it. And, and I, and I think too, [00:03:00] in this environment, we can have the best laid out plans and it's how we respond to the chaos. So, you know, in your work. At Top Dog, what practices are you suggesting to have our organizations and ourselves on Smoother waters? Yeah. As often as we can.

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[00:03:21] One of the things that we do within the business eo, and if I can just back up for a little bit, I. Um, kind of talk about where our doghouse sits for those who have no idea, they're like, what's this dog trainer doing on Betsy's podcast? I know I don't train dogs. Uh, we train humans. Uh, I've been doing this, um, as a, as a profession in some way, shape or form for about 30 years, doing my own gig for about 17.

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[00:03:54] They studied. To be an awesome accountant and all of a sudden they're head of the people and they're like, what do I do? So we kind of help them [00:04:00] kind of guide along. We do, um, what we used to call inclusive leadership. Now we're calling it welcoming leadership to get away from some of those naughty words these days.

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[00:04:25] More inclusive and more successful. And then what we're talking about right now is resilient leadership. How do we set ourselves up as leaders, uh, as well as our teams to be resilient in times of change? And, and, and we do, uh, these four areas and a bunch of different channels. You know, we do keynotes, training classes, all that good stuff and, and all that.

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[00:05:03] So it's things like having that positive perspective. It's really having that, what we call a healthy self-concept, and it's really getting yourself comfortable with that, that uncertainty or that ambiguity. And so we channel our energy there. First, because the idea is if you can get these three under your belt and you can say, yeah, you know, this discomfort, um, having, having comfort with this uncertainty, this ambiguity, great, then we can move into that, that times of change and kind of rinse and repeat and, and, and flex those resiliency muscles accordingly.

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[00:06:04] So I keep, so when I've been hit with a couple of curve balls, I keep thinking, okay, if I didn't have these curve balls, I wouldn't be learning something new. It may not feel good, but that's the way, that's the self-talk I have to use to get myself to the other side of it. Because, like you said about being positive.

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[00:06:38] Dr. Steve Yacovelli: Yeah. And, and, and just, you know, when I, when we talk about, and this class I created, um, years ago, uh, prior to starting my own gig, one of my, my stops was at IBM and I was a change management consultant.

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[00:07:07] What else is in the environment for them? You know, at one point we were on a client engagement, and we were doing this one. It was, it was a, um, a utility company. We were changing some of their business processes pretty significantly, but we are one of 17. Enterprise wide change is happening at that one moment.

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[00:07:40] So, uh, you know, I can really see where some people who, who, especially, you know, who maybe don't look at the world in that most positive light, that that glass is always half empty and, you know, positivity. It's not like, you know, my former Disney coming out, oh boy, everything's great. It's not that it's okay, well that was a crappy day, but what's a good thing that came out of it that's [00:08:00] resiliency.

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[00:08:21] Mm-hmm.

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[00:08:42] Some days everything goes exactly how I want it. It is perfect, and other days it just gets totally sideswiped. And again, as a leader, it's all about our response to it, not necessarily the reaction. 'cause I think I'm more resilient when I [00:09:00] respond than when I react.

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[00:09:07] Our leadership programming. And if you're not watching the video, I have a graphic up here. These are the six leadership competencies that, in my experience, really make or break the difference. They are authenticity, courage, empathy, communication, relationships, and culture. And yes, if you're looking, they are through the rainbow flag because I actually use that in a lot of our lgbtq plus leadership and my, my books.

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[00:09:45] Yeah. Then that's gonna impact the rest of the folks around us. 'cause emotions are contagious. Mm-hmm. And that could be a good contagion or bad contagion and we can kind of manage that, uh, as successful leaders.

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[00:10:03] Just handle something that occurred. I notice that when I see people's emails that are filled with a lot of emotion, and believe me, we have emotion. I will sometimes write an email that's the communication is filled with the emotion. I, I don't have the person's name and the two, but I get it out

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[00:10:25] Besty Cerulo - Host: then I write.

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[00:10:28] Intro: Yeah.

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[00:10:47] Dr. Steve Yacovelli: Yeah. Well, but, but what you just did there, Betsy, is one thing that some leaders really struggle with and that's having self-awareness. Yes. And saying, you know, like, you know, some people just sit and pull that keyboard and mm-hmm. And, and they don't, they do [00:11:00] hit the enter key or they do have someone in the two, and then it sends off and then they realize.

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[00:11:22] And then you sit down and like you said, revisit it and then say, okay, here's the facts now and here, let's kind of move forward.

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[00:11:38] Intro: Mm-hmm.

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[00:11:48] You ask. And many times I will tell people, whether it's on my staff or any of our contractors. Pick up the phone and have the conversation with someone.

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[00:12:07] You know, I, I, I don't know how many times, especially from a personal perspective, I'll get that text message like, Kay, I'm like. Oh, is that okay? Are you mad because it was short? Yeah, exactly. And so, so you know, we, we default to the channels. We have a bias towards maybe not necessarily thinking about the channel that's one for the recipient or recipients is maybe better.

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[00:12:41] We'll work just fine.

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[00:13:20] Don't put this in an email.

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[00:13:27] Besty Cerulo - Host: But you know, with all the work that you've done. Tell me. What do you recommend, what not to do in times of high stress?

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[00:13:47] You know, those who are around you, even in a physical space, you know, emotions are part of who we are. And one of the things I talk about in, in some our training programs, there's a, um, a book called, um, switch by Chip and Dan Heath, the Heath Brothers, and it's a great [00:14:00] book. I've actually, uh, I just helped edit Dan Zs book, which I was very excited about.

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[00:14:04] Dr. Steve Yacovelli: Um, but yeah, it's really cool. So, but, um, one of the things they talk about, and they, they actually borrow this from a, a, an NY. YU professor, but it's a concept called the elephant and the rider. And basically all humans are, are that image, you know, the, the rider sitting on top of an elephant. But the rider's represented as the rational side of us, the logical side where the elephant is representing the emotional side of us.

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[00:14:44] 'cause that elephant's pretty darn big. Right. So, and that's how us humans are our emotions. If we let our emotions, uh, if we want them to go one way, they will. But if they decide they want to go in a whole other direction, as my, um, my, my Disney work wife at the time, years ago, still a great friend, she said, talked about the concept of getting [00:15:00] emotionally hijacked and, and that happens to us.

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[00:15:18] Mm-hmm. Um, a lot of folks don't think about, you know, what is their own emotional intelligence when it comes to themselves, and how do they regulate that? What about the emotional intelligence of your, the rest of your team, having that social understanding on what's happening, what's being said, what's not being said.

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[00:15:48] Besty Cerulo - Host: Mm-hmm. And you know, I, I noticed too, when I feel really stressed out, I will get up from my desk, I will take a stroll, come back, [00:16:00] and then. Regroup again, and I think the pause button is so valuable for anyone, even if we're with our spouses and we are in a disagreement, you step back, take a breath, pause, and then come back to the conversation whether you renegotiate a different time or, or you can get right back into the moment.

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[00:16:26] Dr. Steve Yacovelli: Yes. Yes you do. You really do.

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[00:16:47] Dr. Steve Yacovelli: Uh, yeah, it's, it's been a really, as I'm sure many folks listening and, and, and working can know it, it's been a very interesting time, um, since even before, um, the turn of the year.

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[00:17:15] We've been doing all their leadership training for, you know, 16, 17 years. Other folks, I'll, I'll come in and do keynotes and stuff and, and so what I'm seeing is, is a variety of. Changes depending on the four areas of focus for the business. You know, the, uh, the inclusive leadership piece will start there is really struggling.

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[00:17:55] And so those have either been gone or thrown away. Um, we are seeing an uptick in the resilient [00:18:00] leadership. Shockingly so. Yep. Um, and then one of our, uh, one of our biggest clients for the Essential Leadership Program, you know, our leadership 1 0 1 stuff, happens to be one of the, um, public broadcasting entities whose funding is, is on the mark.

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[00:18:31] However, we're in Canada and you're American. Right. And we can't, we can't spend money on you right now. I'm like, dang, GoIT. I mean, I understand that. Yeah. But it's just been this weird, perfect storm. And so, so for my little business, it's been, it's been interesting. Um, and, and also, you know, it's not just me seeing a lot of these things.

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[00:19:08] I, um, but really sitting, okay, so I hate the term pivot now, ever since COVID. Yes. But that's kind of where, where we're at, you know, and, and my doctor's actually in instructional technology distance education, so I've been zooming before Zoom was a. Thing even well before COVID, so now it's okay. So maybe where do we lean in something like that, which is not, I mean, it's still being authentic with, with the work that we do, but maybe it's focusing on some of those areas like resiliency or like, uh, virtual presentation skills, which is, you know, what we're, we're also.

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[00:19:56] Mm-hmm.

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[00:20:28] Intro: Yeah.

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[00:20:40] Intro: Mm-hmm.

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[00:20:49] Dr. Steve Yacovelli: Yeah. And, and, and I, that's where I get frustrated. I mean, I've been teaching inclusive leadership my entire career basically, and it's never been like, oh my gosh, you have to do all these things and if you're this type of demographic, you should feel [00:21:00] bad about what history did that?

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[00:21:19] And it's um, by two women, garden, Schwartz and Row. They were kind of pioneers in the DEI space. You back. When, you know, early SHRM Days, society of Human Resource Management, and they came up with an idea like how do you organize the concept of diversity? And so they created these five layers, and I'll just very briefly share those.

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[00:21:50] Then you have the next layer out, which they call internal dimensions, and these are things that. For the most part, don't change over your, the course of your lifetime. Uh, gender, uh, gender identity, race, ethnicity, [00:22:00] sexual orientation, physical ability, age. Now, you know, obviously age changes each year, but for the most part, these are things that don't change.

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[00:22:26] You know, things like my income, my personal habits, my religion, uh, my physical appearance, my recreational habits. Background work, uh, parental status, marital status, you know, these are all different things. So I usually stop here and we, we always bring this up in every training class we do, and we say, you know, who hears a parent?

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[00:22:58] I get it. You know, it's just the way [00:23:00] you look at the world that makes us each unique and that's. Also diverse. Diverse, yeah, absolutely. And then the next layer you're out is, is organizational dimensions in relationship to the group that you're a part of. So if you say in the workplace, at your functional level, um, you know, the division, uh, your seniority, if you're in a union.

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[00:23:28] Ah, I'm in accounting. I'm over here, I'm on the front line, whatever. And then lastly, added. Um, country of operation. So, so, and this is a fairly, not, fairly new, but newer, uh, than the other four. And they said, you know what? We do have to acknowledge that wherever you sit in the world and you're operating out of does have influence on how you're looking at the world, such as the political systems, the values, business etiquette, all these different pieces and parts do contribute to how you engage and look at the world.

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[00:24:13] Germans think of, of timeliness in one way versus some other cultures. I. Not better, not worse. It just is and you see that come into fruition. So I, I just love this model because I really think it takes the concept of what diversity is and really blows it out to be better and more inclusive, ironically enough.

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[00:24:38] Besty Cerulo - Host: Right. You know, even when we have some of the, some of the organizations we know from N-G-L-C-C, the large corporations, they have to manage all of their offices differently because of where they're placed in the us.

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[00:25:03] Intro: Yep.

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[00:25:21] Mm-hmm. With the people that are looking at all the conspiracy theories or whatever, whatever news outlet to really understand. Okay. This is coming up a lot in political conversations. Let's talk about what diversity really means.

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[00:25:35] Besty Cerulo - Host: Because my feeling is if you, you send something like that out and maybe if you've changed a handful of, a handful of people's, uh, opinion of what diversity is, then you've started to, to break that mold.

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[00:26:07] Right? And it gets people thinking beyond the, you know, the, the, the hot button, hot titles that are out in the media and it's like, it's a yes. And, you know, and, and when I bring up that, that whole, um, five leaders of diversity model, because I even talk about, um, handedness. You know, I, I know a lot of left-handed, I'm, I'm right-handed, but 12% of the global population ish is, is left-handed.

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[00:26:43] Having enough. So that people all are accommodated for, it's not right. It's just like being a kind human. I know. But we've suddenly made it, you know, this big political drama and which slowly impacts a lot of businesses, not just mine.

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[00:27:05] Intro: Yeah.

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[00:27:16] Dr. Steve Yacovelli: I, I love that you've said that. It's, it's funny when I was writing my last book, pride Leadership and I got to the, the, um, chapter on culture and shaping workplace culture, specifically how that looks.

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[00:27:48] Maybe that's because they've pulled back from all the political rhetoric. Um, whatever the reason. So, you know, you first, you do your. Your research, you know, is, is it as, um, exclusion, [00:28:00] exclusionary, exclusionary as you expect it to or not. And so you, you kind of gather the data and see is it really yes or no?

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[00:28:28] But I think our first spot is are they really? You know, I, I know a lot of my client partners who said, Steve, we're still gonna do what we do with you, but we just can't call it what we were calling it. Just to kind of, and, and I'm like, you know what? I think that's a little, little lack of courage, right?

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[00:28:58] And, you know, like one of my, my client [00:29:00] partners, um, well actually one of my, my coachees with a big, big tech company, and I asked him, I said, you know, what's gonna happen next month in June, in Pride month? Is your company going to. Put the rainbow on your logo like you do every year. And he's like, you know what?

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[00:29:31] They said, you know what? I think right now I could be okay with that. Um. Now talk to me in like three years from now if that's the norm. Mm, maybe not. Then that seems like we're sliding back too far.

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[00:29:53] Now we're looking, well, what is drying up? It's a lot of funding and grants.

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[00:29:58] Besty Cerulo - Host: So. [00:30:00] We have to start shifting then maybe part of our purpose now, there needs to be more emphasis on how can we open up those, you know, those lines of financing and giving people an a, a place to come to. There are new organizations, not a lot of money, but still there's one other place, a new place where they can come to start looking at what could be possible.

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[00:30:39] Dr. Steve Yacovelli: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and I think, you know, uh, you know, as I look at some of, um, the folks who I interact with who's, who have, you know, quote unquote dissolved our diversity equity inclusion department, wink, you know, they've just split them.

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[00:31:12] Okay, now we'll focus over here. Well, that's a, that's a really big sign of, of, of, um, performative allyship in the past. And now we know and, and we will remember that going forward. Yeah.

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[00:31:38] And the pendulum always swings.

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[00:31:41] Besty Cerulo - Host: We just have to know that as the pendulum is swinging, we're, we're moving towards a lot more, moving into more chaos.

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[00:31:49] Besty Cerulo - Host: And it's how we respond to the chaos. Yeah. That allows us to make the difference, the good difference. Yeah. And

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[00:32:01] Besty Cerulo - Host: That's right. That's right. Because those of us who have been out here for a long time, you can't silence us. You can't, you can't stop us. It's just we're, we've just gotten more creative

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[00:32:24] But there's actually some really amazing studies that happened within the last year, uh, looking at, um, what people, uh, think, you know, the, the first one I thought was really fascinating and, and actually this one's even outdated 'cause it just came out in January. Gallup, um, you know, asked how many, how many queer Americans are there?

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[00:33:00] It's like we're become more comfortable coming out. Right. But the, the data I absolutely love the best is looking at, um, when you ask Gen Z. What percent do you identify as LGBTQ plus? And it bumped up to 28% according. Interesting. And then what's even cooler about them, uh, is in five short years, not even five years, they'll be 30% of the workforce, uh, according to the data.

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[00:33:57] That's right. And now you just lost a third of the, the workforce [00:34:00] because of what you do and what you value.

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[00:34:08] Intro: Mm-hmm.

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[00:34:17] Intro: Mm-hmm.

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[00:34:42] Makes me uncomfortable and I don't wanna participate in the conversation. So you're not necess, you're not telling that person they're wrong, but you're, you're, you're kind of gracefully exiting from it.

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[00:35:02] And it's just those, those rebuttals or conversation starters and, and some, I think ev all of us who've been in this fight for a while Yeah. Um, already knew like, you know, well, what shaped your perspective to get there or something to that effect. You know, that's a really interesting, uh, vantage point.

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[00:35:40] And they're like, no, let's, let's have that conversation in a respectful way to really start to parse out who, who is maybe someone we can have a conversation with versus those who are just really into certain television stations and radio shows, and they just pair it what they hear.

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[00:36:02] Now, don't ask the question with an edge. Exactly. You know, be neutral. Ask the question and, and it's in receiving the answers allows you, how should I continue the conversation?

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[00:36:17] Besty Cerulo - Host: can stay in that kinder space that's. Not as chaotic.

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[00:36:24] Besty Cerulo - Host: perhaps so. Well, Steve, this conversation has been so informative, valuable.

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[00:36:45] Dr. Steve Yacovelli: and so if, if you find, uh, you or your organization is looking for, uh, assistance in helping with that leadership 1 0 1 kind of things that inclusive or welcoming or insert whatever's the right way, belonging, leadership, um, if you are part of the LGBTQ plus community, reach out to me.

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[00:37:15] I'm sure it's gonna be in the show notes, but how we can support you in those four areas, uh, really, really, really wanna help, uh, get us all through this, this particular weird and wonderful time that we, we are in.

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[00:37:29] Dr. Steve Yacovelli: reach out to you directly?

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[00:37:45] Besty Cerulo - Host: Wonderful. Well, Steve, thank you so much for today.

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[00:38:00] Dr. Steve Yacovelli: Thank you, Betsy, and thank you for creating this space. I think it's super important now, more than ever.

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[00:38:06] Well, everyone, thank you so much for your time today. Make sure you reach out to Steve and learn more about what he does and whatever you're doing out there, just make sure you make a difference and do it with kindness.

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[00:38:25] And share this episode with a colleague or two or three for resources to help you lead with purpose and build more equitable workplaces. Visit room at the table podcast com.